Educational Gaming Commons - Press Start

On 9-27-07, some of the Penn State folks using Second Life met to discuss using SL for research, and what were the implications for following Institutional Review Board (IRB) standards. Leading the discussion was Professor Beliveau (Ed Lamoureux). Ed's done some pioneering work in this area and had some good advice to share.

While I've posed the chat transcript below, I'll summarize here.

All agreed that following IRB for gathering research data that will be shared and/or published is critical. No surprise there!

Ed uses inworld notecards that explain the research to the prospective subject, and then captures the text chat from that subject when the subject indicates consent. I'm not sure Penn State IRB will accept that, but it does contain the informed consent process within SL. The alternative is to ask them to go to a website and "complete and sign" an informed consent form via a form. My fear is you will lose MANY potential subjects by doing this - it takes too long and formalizes the process, probably scaring many off.

Another issue that came up was anonymunity. How do you do this with avatars? One way is assign numbers or fictional names to each subject - just as in RL.

Ed suggests getting permission to do research from the land owner as well - good advice!

Another issue is chat transcripts, pictures, and movies. It's easy to scrub out the names from a chat session to mask a subject's name, but what about pictures and movies? You need to have permission to do so. Just because it's easy to do this in SL without the subject knowing it is happening doesn't mean it's OK. 

We need some specific guidelines about what can be done here. One area we need to look at is gaming research - surely these issues have come up before. 

Transcript (all present indicated consent to share this)

You: IRB is one form of coverage we have for all of using SL for education - what else do we/should we have?

You: I know Flora has students signing an agreement

You: I've posted our etiquette stuff- what else should we have?

Bart Weber: Gerry and I are trying to do the same thing… have the students sign an MOU before using SL in class

Juls Merrienboer: Will there be stuff posted on the virtual worlds stuff

Juls Merrienboer: and alternative information also available there?

Flora Almendros: What I did was specifically in response to an article in the Chronicle about liablility

You: yes, that's the plan

You: so whatever we have in hear is also on an external site\

Plato Pizzicato: but there are 2 issues her for educators...

Juls Merrienboer: I know we have a boot camp of sorts, I believed being developed, we should share it

Plato Pizzicato: one is liability for a class and the other is a framework for doing research

You: Yes

Plato Pizzicato: of course they can overlap

You: Is there any existing info on what others have done for the class portion?

Plato Pizzicato: so r u doing an MOU for a standard class in SL -- wo formal research component?

Mixalis Lytton: i have not had any of my 60 students i have using SL sign anything, but made them aware of the ettiquete standards we have posted all over my island

Bart Weber: I believe the initial MOU is just for class purposes at IST, no research component yet (unless Gerry is working on that)

You: I'm not doing anything right now - but it sounds like PSU needs an MoU for students in an class using SL

Donna Upshaw is Online

Will Nohkan: What is MOU? Sorry I am a bit behind the curve.

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Bart Weber: Memorandum of Understanding

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

Donna Upshaw: Hello everyone!

Will Nohkan: Got it.

Bart Weber: Hiya!

You: Hi Donna!

Will Nohkan: hi

Plato Pizzicato: there r other issues - such as can students post SL chat logs on a blog etc

Flora Almendros: Hi

Tarkus Octagon is Online

You: Yes - that's against LL rules unless you have consent from all chatting

You: Same for pictures, etc

Juls Merrienboer: what is the best way to define there is group concensus

Donna Upshaw: Are we using audio for this meeting?

You: So that's at least two items that have to be included in any MoU

Juls Merrienboer: I don't think so Alexia

You: We were, but the guest speaker is absent, and some here do not have voice

Donna Upshaw: OK

Will Nohkan: When did these rules come into play? As far as research was concerned, Robin at LL told me all I needed was IRB approval from my institution.

You: For audio, if you use an audio logger, it requires you to touch it, indicating consent.

You: No touch, no consent, no capture

Will Nohkan: Ahh.

Juls Merrienboer: Can we set up a demo of this at some point? or do a connect session on that?

You: But picts are different, and even text is still in the open to grab

You: I can arrange a demo of some of the simpler stuff - sure

Donna Upshaw: Oakey, dokey

Donna Upshaw: sounds like a good plan

Flora Almendros: I apologize, but I have a two o'clock class..thanks, bye!

You: Maybe that's a good inworld session to have for not just PSU, but others

Donna Upshaw: Goodbye Flora

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Flora Almendros is Offline

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

You: Thansk for coming - sorry for the delays

Juls Merrienboer: that happens

Donna Upshaw: Have we done introductions yet?

Juls Merrienboer: and we need to be aware and have back up plans in place for sessions like this or in class activities

You: Yes - first rule is NO WEDNESDAY STUFF! ;)

Bart Weber: Haha, agreed

Juls Merrienboer: LOL

You: Seriously, I saw no announcements about the upgrade

Donna Upshaw: I didn't either

Mixalis Lytton: i went to present to our entire faculty on a wed about SL, they stuck me last and guess what

You: but should have checked!

Will Nohkan: There wasn't one

Mixalis Lytton: linden shut down early

Donna Upshaw: Oh no!!

Donna Upshaw: That's why I have a series of screen shots in a Powerpoint presentation

Plato Pizzicato: Will, can i ask you a question abt IRB -- is this to publish research collected in SL?

You: Donna, we have not introed ourselves yet

Donna Upshaw: in the event that Linden Labs is acting up

Donna Upshaw: OK

Will Nohkan: Yes. I am working on my diss.

Plato Pizzicato: But we all agree there is no need for IRB approval to do traditional classwork in SL

Donna Upshaw: Brett Bjornson - would you send a transcript of this meeting so that I can share with the faculty at GV?

You: But to collect and publish data gathered, there is

You: Sure, Donna

Donna Upshaw: Thanks a lot!

Will Nohkan: There isn't in the class room.

You: Is everyone here OK with sharing this transcript?

Juls Merrienboer: yes

Bart Weber: Sure

Will Nohkan: Yes

Mixalis Lytton: yes

Plato Pizzicato: Right -- thati strue for traditional non-SL classwork

Juls Merrienboer: i think we need to define some of these issues for future faculty interested in using and researching

You: Will, what has PSU IRB told you so far?

You: What do u have to do?

Will Nohkan: However, I have heard from the LL that there were times residents were upset with some research activities going on in SL.

Will Nohkan: I am still working on the proposal, but I have colleagues who have done work in online environments and you often need an email or something in writing from a site or platform owner to get through IRB.

You: I know one of the things Ed was going to stree was getting the OK from land owners where you did research

Juls Merrienboer: There is not a clear understanding of what SL is, that is the problem. I read in time mag. today that HBO is working on a documentary that is being produced and recorded in SL and they said SL is a game

Will Nohkan: I have an email from Robin that says go a head and do your research with IRB approval.

Donna Upshaw: The gaming aspect of SL is something that unfortunately we are not going to be able to change in the minds of many people

Plato Pizzicato: Here is another problem -- how could you intervview an SL resident and get IRB approval if their RL identity in unknown

Donna Upshaw: The GV faculty's concern about the IRB approval is to stress clarity around the fact that avatars are real people

Mixalis Lytton: isnt that the same as anonymous surveys

Will Nohkan: If I can "gaurantee" confidentiality or anonymity it will be fine.

Donna Upshaw: some of the faculty here is struggling with this

Donna Upshaw: Hello Tarkus

Tarkus Octagon: hi - just got online

Plato Pizzicato: will IRB accept no prrof of >18 years of age?

Mixalis Lytton: hi gerry

You: Hi Tarkus

Tarkus Octagon: i have to split in 10 mins for class but wanted to get here at least briefly

Plato Pizzicato: proof

You: If you are in the main grid, you should be 18

You: but where is the proof

Will Nohkan: Should be able to have people agree to an interview.

Donna Upshaw: I think you would have to get some form of consent outside of SL

Donna Upshaw: to verify that the individual is who they really said that they are

You: what about web-based research?

You: How do tyhey do it?

Donna Upshaw: you can still provide confidentiality

Plato Pizzicato: so can you interview an SL resident who will not provide RL identity?

You: Don't you click on an acceptance button on a form?

Donna Upshaw: I don't think that you can Plato under our IRB policies

Will Nohkan: You can set up a website to do that for you outside of SL if you want.

Plato Pizzicato: I agree but it is complicated

You: The problem is - if u walk up to an SL resident and ask them to go to an external site - you've lost them

Will Nohkan: I have heard of IRB letting studies go through that you just asked in the interview process but they may not do that anymore

Donna Upshaw: What was the question about web based research?

Donna Upshaw: Maybe Brett and then again maybe not

You: How do you do that at PSU & get permission

You: from subjects

Juls Merrienboer: has there been research in the past documented

Juls Merrienboer: and how did they go about getting consent and IRB approval

Donna Upshaw: In order for the sample to be "pure" you have to be able to verify legit. identity

Donna Upshaw: I'm not aware of any PSU researchers who have conducted research in SL as of yet

Donna Upshaw: I am doing a survey of the librarians of SL

Donna Upshaw: but I have there RL identities

Will Nohkan: I hope to and will turning in IRB at the end of the month.

Juls Merrienboer: anything web based though? Has there been research documented in another program

Donna Upshaw: My current sample is more than 100 people I believe

Juls Merrienboer: can we review their procedures and determine if they relate to how the research will be conducted in sl

Donna Upshaw: Not that I am aware of in SL with PSU

Will Nohkan: What do you mean by web based? Juls

Juls Merrienboer: like if there is research in twitter, blogging, wikis, facebook, or myspace? How did they do the research there?

You: I know IRB here has protocols for doing surveys over the web

Juls Merrienboer: they are web based and not all define true identity

Donna Upshaw: Consent must happen for the research to take place with any social networking tools

Plato Pizzicato: I am also concerned abt undergraduate research in SL -- which will increase dramatically this year

You: The subject has to agreed to participate by clicking on an accept button

Will Nohkan: I know of one example with a blog and can put you in touch with the researchers.

Donna Upshaw: If the identity can not be verified, it's unlikely that it will be approved

Juls Merrienboer: we should look at the example with the blog

Donna Upshaw: This sounds like the possibility of a good session at UP Brett Bjornson

Juls Merrienboer: does it mimic in some way the type of research that will be done in sl?

You: Not sure if those web forms capture anything beyond the IP

Donna Upshaw: understanding IRB approvals in virtual world environments

Will Nohkan: They went through PSU IRB and everything

Juls Merrienboer: cool

Will Nohkan: I have also had profs in the humanities tell me that if something is public and on the web then you are free to use it.

Donna Upshaw: I can reach out to Dee Manning who has been helping with my research detail

You: Will, that kind of info would make a great blog post

Will Nohkan: That scares me a bit

Donna Upshaw: Me too

You: Yes, transcript

Plato Pizzicato: depends on what you mean by public?

Tarkus Octagon: bye all - must run to class...

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Donna Upshaw: Take care Tarkus

Tarkus Octagon is Offline

Mixalis Lytton: bye

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

Bart Weber: Seeya Gerry

Plato Pizzicato: bye

Plato Pizzicato: so, here is an example of a small undegrad research project...

Plato Pizzicato: a student interviews 10 artists doing business in SL...

Plato Pizzicato: and documents chats, besuines models, stc...

Plato Pizzicato: and wants to publish the data ...

Plato Pizzicato: but there will be no RL infomration..so no IRB approval

Will Nohkan: Nope

Plato Pizzicato: i just made up that example

Donna Upshaw: I would check with Dee Mannings Bob on your question

Donna Upshaw: I don't think that you would receive IRB approvals

Juls Merrienboer: we should document examples like that, so we can go back and understand the problems

Plato Pizzicato: it is on the boundary -- but SL gives this layer

Will Nohkan: You are not supposed to be able to get IRB retroactively, but sometimes you can.

Donna Upshaw: Yup Will that's true

Donna Upshaw: I've been able to work on my IRB application post facto

Will Nohkan: IF they do the research for class. No IRB needed. IF they want to publish=IRB

You: IRB will always err on the side of caution and insist you get subject approval

Plato Pizzicato: I wul liketo see if there is some research that could be IRB apporved tha would not involve disclosiong RL info

Will Nohkan: That is what I am trying to do with my research.

Donna Upshaw: I doubt that because it calls into question whether or not your research is real or made up

Plato Pizzicato: BEcause you ar not going to get RL info form most residents

Plato Pizzicato: from

Donna Upshaw: and given some of the intellectual barriers with SL

You: BRB

Donna Upshaw: it would make sense to provide as much rich detail as possible in order to verify research subjects

Plato Pizzicato: So we will need some guidelines specific to what can be done in SL

Donna Upshaw: Yes

Bart Weber: How are people handling research withing Warcraft and Everquest? this doesn't seem to be a unique problem...people publish from those environments which are very similar

Donna Upshaw: From what I have read, they are getting consent in advance from groups within those environments

Bart Weber: I know we have some folks here that published some WoW articles

Donna Upshaw: in order to conduct the research

Juls Merrienboer: is there someone we can invite to a session like this to discuss what they have done?

Bart Weber: Yes...I think Steven Thorne here at UP has done research in WoW...Brett probably knows more

Donna Upshaw: Every situation in terms of IRB approvals is different

You: I can ask Steve about this, for sure

Professor Beliveau is Online

Donna Upshaw: so it would make sense to have the IRB folks conduct sessions for assistance

Donna Upshaw: so that people can have a contact to work with

Plato Pizzicato: Do the IRB people have familiarity with SL?

Bart Weber: aye. Seems that people are doing research here and in other VWs, and this isn't a trend that is going away...so would be good to get IRB involved early

Donna Upshaw: I think a little bit

You: Hey - You made it! Yeah!

Donna Upshaw: Hello Prof Beliveau

You: Everyone, I'd like to into you to Ed Lamoureux

Plato Pizzicato: Hi Ed

Will Nohkan: Hi

Mixalis Lytton: hi ed

Juls Merrienboer: Hi Ed

Donna Upshaw: Hi Ed

You: So we have about 20 minutes left

Donna Upshaw: OK

Plato Pizzicato: what happened to Ed?

You: Gee - where di he go?

Bart Weber: We scared Ed of!

Professor Beliveau is Offline

You: He's offline

Plato Pizzicato: He needed IRB approval to be here :)

Mixalis Lytton: btw i would like to invite anyone who has not seen it to go next door here

Bart Weber: Haha

Donna Upshaw: hehe

Mixalis Lytton: to see PSU Bkers

Professor Beliveau is Online

Mixalis Lytton: Berks

Mixalis Lytton: when you get a chance

Donna Upshaw: Good people - I have to leave you now

Donna Upshaw: it was nice seeing everyone

Will Nohkan: bye

Mixalis Lytton: bye

Bart Weber: Cya Donna

Plato Pizzicato: bye Donna

Juls Merrienboer: bye

Plato Pizzicato: Mix has done a great job at Berks

Donna Upshaw is Offline

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Will Nohkan: Ed is back

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

Plato Pizzicato: he is allowing my Abington students to use some of his facilities this semester

Will Nohkan: Hi Ed

Linda Sautereau is Online

Will Nohkan: He is rezzing slowly

You: OK - we have about 15 minutes left - more if you can stay. Let's turn the floor over to Prof Bel

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

Linda Sautereau is Offline

Professor Beliveau: sorry ... we must have miscommunicated about the time

Professor Beliveau: are we in voice or chat only?

You: N/P

You: Some here do not have voice

Professor Beliveau: k

You: so we've been texting

Professor Beliveau: what can I help you with?

You: One ? that came up is WHEN do you need IRB approval for SL research

You: Can u gather data without it , then publih?

Professor Beliveau: well

Professor Beliveau: I read the TOS to say that you have to have permission at the front end

Professor Beliveau: which end your irb requires is up to them

Professor Beliveau: I wouldn't want to face one with data though

Professor Beliveau: without permission

Professor Beliveau: depends a little on your irb and their processes

Professor Beliveau: the tos is clear

Professor Beliveau: you can't use the data without permission

Professor Beliveau: wouldn't your irb be worried over the lack of informed consent

You: I believe so!

Professor Beliveau: if you came in AFTER you collected the data?

You: Probably - sometimes they allow this

You: PSU IRB is pretty strict

Plato Pizzicato: What abt cases using SL data or identities that are not correlated to RL identities?

Professor Beliveau: I don't think identity correlation matters

Professor Beliveau: excuse the example please

Professor Beliveau: but if I see Plato Pizzicato having sex with an avi

Professor Beliveau: and report it

Professor Beliveau: in a public document.

Professor Beliveau: there are others who know Plato

Professor Beliveau: either inworld or out

Professor Beliveau: my reportage can damage him

Professor Beliveau: whether or not the RL person is connected

Plato Pizzicato: How do u get consent from an avi?

Professor Beliveau: we present them with an informed consent protocol

Professor Beliveau: and ask their permission

Professor Beliveau: same as I would in RL

Professor Beliveau: if the data could be tied to a person

You: Do u do this in SL, or externally?

Professor Beliveau: in SL

You: Can u show us an example?

Plato Pizzicato: That is interesting, because we did not think that wold get IRB approval

Professor Beliveau gave you AmundsonHSP RELEASE.

Professor Beliveau: what is "that"?

Professor Beliveau: oh. you mean asking inworld?

Professor Beliveau: why not.

Professor Beliveau: you have a transcript history of what they say

Professor Beliveau: of your asking

You: Did everyone get the notecard example?

Professor Beliveau: of the note you give them

Professor Beliveau: and of their respnose

Professor Beliveau: I only did one side of the room

Professor Beliveau: sorry

Juls Merrienboer: no

You: NP - keep talking - I'll do it

Bart Weber accepted your inventory offer.

Professor Beliveau: I think that's everyone

Professor Beliveau: we also got the permission of the land owner

Plato Pizzicato accepted your inventory offer.

Professor Beliveau: on which we collected data

Will Nohkan: I know IRb would let this fly at PSU as long as you have a question in your chat log that says did you get my notecard, read it and understand it.

Professor Beliveau: I think of it like a mall

Will Nohkan accepted your inventory offer.

Professor Beliveau: yes will

You: How do the Avis indicated permission?

Professor Beliveau: you have your chat log

Professor Beliveau: that you asked them

Professor Beliveau: you have the info you gave them

You: Ah!

Professor Beliveau: you ask them for their response

Professor Beliveau: then you have that too.

Professor Beliveau: you can give them time to read it, answer questions, etc

Professor Beliveau: WE had a land owner who said "no":

Professor Beliveau: the student reported it to me, I contacted the person, ended up on the phone with him

Professor Beliveau: once I fully explained

Professor Beliveau: he thoght we were the most wonderful things on earth

Professor Beliveau: residents worry over people taking info out.

Professor Beliveau: they have to be assured that their data will be protected

Professor Beliveau: they aren't actully worried about researchers

Professor Beliveau: they are worried about hjournalists

Professor Beliveau: or people who will tape record performances or steal art

You: makes sense - many ion here are living out fantasies, etc & don't waht the RL folks to know

Professor Beliveau: researchers with protection protocols are the exception

Professor Beliveau: so are welcomed with open arms

You: Ed, tell us about how you handled IRB for an entire class of student researchers

Professor Beliveau: well

Professor Beliveau: they intially wanted a proposal from each student

Bart Weber: FYI: I have a student come over to snap a few pics of our meeting. No IRB approval yet, but I doubt they will be published :)

Professor Beliveau: class of beginners

Professor Beliveau: pix of me are ok with me

Professor Beliveau: I just did my hair

Professor Beliveau: anyway....

Bart Weber: great!

Brett Brocco accepted your inventory offer.

Professor Beliveau: that would be problematic. .. we were in a 3 week interim... no refunds available after 2nd day

Professor Beliveau: so if the studnet had their project turned down...

Professor Beliveau: they'd be shot for the class.

Professor Beliveau: generally that would also be so in a full session.

Professor Beliveau: exp. with beginners.

Professor Beliveau: So I argued that they'd all be doing, basically, the same things.

Professor Beliveau: I listed all the activities.... casing, maping, entering, protection

Professor Beliveau: data collection, interviewing, observation, etc.

Professor Beliveau: and said that each student would be doing these things in a community of practice

Professor Beliveau: So we worked out a deal where I'm the PI on every project

Professor Beliveau: it's my responsibility to supervise the students

Professor Beliveau: and make sure they are doing the protocols correctly

Professor Beliveau: the students have to submit their work for my approval.

Professor Beliveau: I got the exemption from full board review that SHOULD go with observational research

Professor Beliveau: ta da

Professor Beliveau: Sl should not be more restrictive than RL

You: Folks, we're almost out of time - any other ? for Ed?

Professor Beliveau: but those darn nameplates have implications

Plato Pizzicato: sorry i must leave -- great discussion - thanks Ed

Professor Beliveau: ok

Bart Weber: Cya Bob

Professor Beliveau: sory about the timing

You: Later Bob

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

Will Nohkan: what do you mean by name plate

Professor Beliveau: thanks for having me anyway

Professor Beliveau: I see you are will nohkan

You: No. we had a great discussion that gave us some ??? for you - worked out fine

Professor Beliveau: and that name also shows up in my chat history

Professor Beliveau: ties your data to your ID

Professor Beliveau: can't be random and anonymous

Professor Beliveau: R&A is what gets observational the "pass" in RL

Will Nohkan: ohh. But when I do the write up I can give everyone a pseudonym.

You: Wonder if there is a chat logger that doesn't grab the avi name?

Professor Beliveau: correct

Will Nohkan: Does that make it confidential or anaonymous

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

You: You can scrube the names out, but it talkes time

Professor Beliveau: you WILL give every one a pseudonym

Will Nohkan: Yes

Professor Beliveau: that will further protect their identity.

You: That's funny, and pname for an avi name!

Professor Beliveau: But when you collect the data . . . you know who they are and it's collected that way

Professor Beliveau: they are not R&A

Professor Beliveau: they are named

Professor Beliveau: that requires subject protection protocols

Professor Beliveau: and their permission.

You: Ed, is it OK w/you if I sent the transcript of this to others who missed the session?

Professor Beliveau: yes

You: Thanks!

Professor Beliveau: feel free to share the script with others.

Will Nohkan: Thank you

Professor Beliveau: ye[

Bart Weber: I may need to followup about pictures if we decide to try and use one for a newsletter at IST

Professor Beliveau: ok

Professor Beliveau: I'll do my hair

Will Nohkan: One more question

Professor Beliveau: yes

Professor Beliveau: ?

You: Well, thanks all for coming, thansk to Ed for answering questions. We'll have to do things like this from now on!

Will Nohkan: IF SL is owned by users and so they hold the copyright am I infringing on IP rights if I take a photo of something and then publsih my work later.

Professor Beliveau: the tos reserv es copyright to inworld creators

Will Nohkan: Would I have to get permission from every object creator whose object ends up in the photo?

You: Ouch!

Professor Beliveau: linden lab retains the right to reuse pix of stuff for the purposes of advertising

Professor Beliveau: there has been LOADS OF COMPLAINING about the issue you raise.

Professor Beliveau: within the game, there are no public places.

Professor Beliveau: so you are right.... if you duplicate materials in pix, you should have the creator's permission

Professor Beliveau: HOWEVER

You: Gee, better carry your own green screen and set it up behind the Avi you interview!

Professor Beliveau: one also can overlay "fair use" rights on the situation.

Professor Beliveau: I think pix generally get by that way

Professor Beliveau: if one overlays the 4 part fair use test

Professor Beliveau: in most occassional uses

Professor Beliveau: one would not have to notify/.get permission from everyone

Professor Beliveau: as long as no gain is received

Professor Beliveau: no market is damaged

You: I can see an issue if I snap photos of great builds in SL, then sell it

Professor Beliveau: a small % of the overall work is used

Professor Beliveau: etc.

Professor Beliveau: yes

Professor Beliveau: a pix of a great build that then gets sold

Professor Beliveau: IP violation

You: but basic research? no

Professor Beliveau: but a snap of a scene in which one of the chairs was made by someone else

Professor Beliveau: no problem

Professor Beliveau: or a general scene to establish "place" diagram for research

Will Nohkan: thank you

Professor Beliveau: again, no problem

Professor Beliveau: fair use covers research, criticism, parody

Professor Beliveau: so unless you are "misusing" the pix, would be ok

Professor Beliveau: BUT

Professor Beliveau: there are IP issues at hand

Professor Beliveau: and one has to think through them carefully

Professor Beliveau: some artists are VERY VERY VERY touchy

Professor Beliveau: cause people have mis0appropriated their work

Professor Beliveau: no designer wants to see their stuff for sale by someone else

Professor Beliveau: I know you guys are overtime.

Professor Beliveau: Your tail feathers must hurt by now.

Professor Beliveau: I'm happy to answer questions......

Bart Weber: Thanks again for coming by Ed

Professor Beliveau: up to you.

Professor Beliveau: my pleasure

Will Nohkan: thank you

Mixalis Lytton: thanks

Professor Beliveau: glad it worked out ok in the end

Will Nohkan: thanks brett

Wood Seat: Press the fly up (PAGE UP) key to raise your hand.

Wood Seat: Press the fly down (PAGE DOWN) key to lower your hand.

Bart Weber: AFK a few mins

You: We were also talking about class protocols - using SL in the classroom, what needs to be done to ensure saftey for all

Professor Beliveau: nice to meet you all

Professor Beliveau: ah

Professor Beliveau: teach in a skybox

Professor Beliveau: get off the ground

You: That would be a good conversation for next time

You: Thanks, Ed!

Professor Beliveau: ok

Professor Beliveau: peace

You: Much appreciated!

You: Thanks all - good conversation! I'll post the transcript soon.

Will Nohkan: where do you post it at

Brett Brocco is Offline

You: Probably the VWorlds site

Will Nohkan: Ok